Kelly Perdew (How to leverage curiosity, social capital and intuition into great businesses)

In this episode of the Judgment Call Podcast Kelly and I talk about:

  • How much you should specialize early in your life.
  • Should you listen to ‘billionaire mentors’?
  • Are military values are great basis for entrepreneurship? Is leadership training a predictor for start-up success?
  • Why and are some of Moonshot Capital’s best investments.
  • How did COVID change the ‘deal flow’ for Venture Capital firms?
  • What impact will Crowdfunding have on Venture Capital?
  • What impact does religion have on entrepreneurship?


Kelly is a VC, Entrepreneur, Military Veteran, Winner of Season 2 – The Apprentice, and father of twins. Kelly is the co-founder & Managing General Partner of Moonshots Capital.

You can reach Kelly on LinkedIn.

P.S. Apologies for my audio quality – this will get much better very soon!


Welcome to the Judgment Call Podcast. The podcast will bring together some of the most curious minds on the planet. Risk takers, travelers, adventurers, investors, entrepreneurs, or simply mind partners. To find all the episodes of this show, please go to iTunes, Spotify, YouTube, or go to for more resources, including how to become a guest, how to advertise, and to see all the lectures, podcasts, and books I would like to, would like you to listen to or read. Please also go to our website at If you like this show, please consider leaving a review on iTunes, or like us and subscribe to us on YouTube. That will make it easier for other users like you to find us later on. This episode of the Judgment Call Podcast is sponsored by Mighty Travels Premium. Full disclosure, this is also my business. What we do at Mighty Travels Premium is to find the best travel deals for you as they happen. We do that in economy, premium economy, business, and first class. And we screen 450,000 new airfare deals every day just for you and present the best based on your preferences. Thousands of subscribers have saved up to 95% of the airfare deals. In case you didn’t know, Americans and Europeans can already travel to more than 80 different countries again, South America, in Africa, and in Eastern Europe. To try out Mighty Travels Premium for free, go to That’s too much for you to type. Just type in, to start your 30 day free trial. Today, to be here with Kelly Perdue. Kelly probably needs no introduction. If you need one, Kelly is a former military intelligence officer. He is a West Point graduate and he’s been the winner of the Apprentice Reality TV show that was run and hosted by Donald Trump back in 2007. Six years, Kelly has been working with an angel syndicate and has been an investor into a lot of companies in the capital. What? What does Kelly? Thanks for doing this. I really appreciate it. I’m excited to be here. Thank you for having me. When I went through your LinkedIn profile, I realized something that really wipes enormously with this show. This show is about risk takers. We share this common curiosity in order to be a risk taker. It’s not just you need to know something slightly different than everyone else out there. You also need to be curious. What I’ve seen is that you really took this to an extreme. You’re involved with more than 50 different companies as an investor, as a mentor, as an advisor, or as an operator. It’s like running corporate America in a way that nobody has seen that yet. Is that true? Well, there are a lot of interesting pieces to what you just asked. I think one is how different people define risk differently. When you talk about risk, that’s one thing. I think the underlying theme for what gets me excited and what I love about what I’m able to do every day is actually engaging with entrepreneurs. If you think, since the beginning of this country’s inception, entrepreneurs are the lifeblood of the country. Good, bad, or indifferent, but it’s the driving force. It’s a massive differentiator. I did serve in the military with that kind of servant leadership DNA. I think that my involvement in the entrepreneurial sector, both as an operator and as an angel investor, then a lead syndicate and then a venture capitalist, some entrepreneurs would argue I went to the dark side, but I would argue that it’s almost a natural evolution where you can have a greater and greater impact. I can run one company, and that can be a very significant impact as it grows. As I’ve learned over time, I can then start advising and helping younger, newer entrepreneurs, and then I can help some entrepreneurs that need just a little bit of help with both money and with connectivity, network, and my experience. It’s been, I guess, a broadening of my ability to impact things, but kudos to you for being able to make it through my very, very long LinkedIn profile. I would say that some would argue that that is indicative of the jack of all trades and master of none syndrome as well. Yes, I get the same advice when I was younger. People would say, you know, that’s generally good life advice, and most people, they will tell you, you have to find one thing that you really like, you got to specialize, you got to dig in, you got to create some value, you got to know everything that is about it, and then you create a business out of this, or you become an employee, you rise up within this organization, and then you maybe can jump to something else by the time you’re 50, and then you do one or two more things in your life, and that’s basically it. For me, that never worked, and I feel like we are brothers and arms there. I think I was 27 years old, so I graduated from West Point, served time in the military, and then gone to law and business school, the joint JD MBA program at UCLA, and I had also read Richard Kayasaki’s second book, most people know Rich Dad Poor Dad, but the second book is called Cash Flow Quadrant, and it’s really fundamental, but unless you think about it all the time, it may not make sense, and it also kind of goes back to risk, but I was sitting at the printers, which is kind of an old school notion, they still have them, but it’s basically where right at the end of a very large transaction, like a large corporate deal, both sides of the transaction show up, and you plan to stay there for two or three days, and you’re literally at a printer where they’re going through the contracts, so all the documentation, and the attorneys are there, the accountants are there, some of the principals may or may not be there, and the third morning, the company was being purchased, it was an acquisition, and I was there as an intern with a law firm, this is an late JD MBA program, I was in law school, so I was working in a law firm, and we were representing the company that was getting acquired, so these liquidity events that all the entrepreneurs talk about and how a lot of wealth is created, and what’s going on, whether it’s an IPO or an acquisition, this was an acquisition, and we’d been working for three days, and the two big law firm attorneys, at then it was only $600 an hour, that was a lot back then, were arguing, and it was the early morning, and the CEO and the CFO, both gentlemen from Texas, older cowboy boots, suits, smoking cigars at like 9 a.m. in the morning, came in, and their attorney, and then the other side’s attorney, was arguing about where a comma went, and that, comma, and comma, that, and the CFO leaned over to the CEO and goes, you believe we’re paying these sons of bitches $600 an hour to argue about where a comma goes, and my proverbial light bulb above my head was like, I want to be the people that are, on one end of the transaction, not the attorneys or the vendors or the accountants that are working on it, and that was my impetus, my risk was ending up kind of in the worker mode, not in the ability to impact, grow and be creative and create significant wealth for the entire ecosystem. So that was kind of my, not wanting to close off doors, even though I went through law school, I went through business school, it’s like that entrepreneurial route is what was attractive to me and pulled me in, because I didn’t consider it to be risk. I considered risk to be working for the man, somebody being able to call and ask, where are you right now? What are you doing? And then, you know, that’s a little bit of an illusion that you have any of that freedom as an entrepreneur, but you still, everyone is your boss when you’re an entrepreneur, but that was the driving force. They’re just not called boss, right? That’s generally the difference. No, I hear you, and I think this is kind of my message also to younger entrepreneurs, it’s sometimes hard to see that you are a part of that calling, because the general life advice, I think that works for a bigger part of the population, is correct, that you need that specialization, but for now, your gene, and I’m sure sooner or later, they’re going to find out what that actually is or what character traits it has made up, that there isn’t much, you won’t be happy in a big organization. As you say, the risk is completely different in your mind, and so it was in my mind. I also went through law school, but I realized I never wanted to work as a lawyer. That’s just not what I want to do, because it doesn’t create any value. Obviously it creates value, but it doesn’t create, that’s why I find this interesting. You used that lawyer example, it’s not the value I want to create, and how I want to be in society and contribute something. You’ve been going, when I saw this, I realized you’re kind of the social media star, before social media even was around, you were on the apprentice, and at the time, I think it was a major reality TV show, right? Yeah, for season two, our finale had 30 million viewers, so half a Super Bowl, half an NFL Super Bowl. And you did your own TV show, right? So during the year where I worked with Donald Trump in New York City, I also hosted a show on the military channel called GI Factory, where it looked at, where it was kind of like a dirty job, but for military weapons, vehicles, and equipment. And I was very very purposeful about where I worked and what I did in the aftermath of winning that show and having that much exposure. And I went with kind of the two themes that were central to kind of who I am. One was kind of entrepreneurship and business, and the other was things having to do related to the military. Both in publishing my book and hosting that show, and then a lot of the charities and activities that I was associated with after the show were focused on those. I had a lot of opportunities to do other stuff, like be a judge at the Miss Hawaiian Tropic Contest that I did not do, but there were a lot of those that maybe sometimes you look back and go, maybe I should have done those, but anyway, I stuck to my guiding kind of principles, if you will. There were opportunities and a lot of people say that when they look back in their life and they’re older, the thing they feel worse about is the things that … Do you already have some certain regrets? Or if you’re like, well, I did so many things, and obviously, you know, the only regret you probably have is that you did too many things. I would say that I am not one of those looking back and feeling badly about regrets. I’m much more of a forward looking, like a lot of entrepreneurs, I think, what’s going on, so I don’t… I also have tried to be very grounded and aware of what’s going on at the time and kind of realize that now is the only thing that matters and, like, absorb and do as much as possible. So I got to do way more than a normal person, or maybe normal three or four or five people’s lifetimes as part of that show, and also through what I did with West Point and the military, you know, there are so many things that I am incredibly fortunate to have kind of combination worked hard and fortunate and started in a great spot in life and was able to do, and I’m still capable of doing that. I don’t spend much time at all on regrets for things that I didn’t do or missed. I had Mike Saray on the podcast a couple of days ago, and we talked about that, and he mentioned, you know, there is this big change in what happened to things of military values, and one way it expresses itself is that a lot of veterans that came out of World War II, they actually became entrepreneurs. Maybe 50%, 60% really big numbers, but if you look at most military members now, they’re weirdly enough, only have a very small percentage that go the entrepreneur. So interestingly, so our VC fund is called Moonshots Capital and my partner is also a West Point graduate, and we invested together, both serial entrepreneurs, we both invested together as, I’ll call it old school angels, you know, pre angel lists, or crowdfunding or the ability to meet everybody very fast and very quickly. So you’d be in your community and you know the dozen or maybe two dozen people who frequently write angel checks, right? So if you find an entrepreneur that you like, you’re gonna like, okay, I love it, I’m gonna write a check, I’m in, and now because I’m an angel, I invest, it’s my job to find the other angels for you. So I now find, I make my phone call or send my email to 8 or 10 other and say, just hey, I’ve done due diligence, I like this entrepreneur, send me your check. And so sight unseen, and you know, a few more 25, you get 10 of those checks, you got a quarter of a million bucks, the entrepreneur friend and family 250, you got a half a million bucks to try to get an MVP. Guess what? Now I’m rolling up my sleeves as the angel, now I’m helping the entrepreneur. Oh, we got a bridge because we didn’t quite make it far enough on that first chunk of capital. So I now help you do a little bit more. Craig and I were doing that together, right? He was in D.C. and Austin, I was in L.A. and we would be in each other’s calls. When we decided to start leading syndicates, thanks to Neval, an angel list, having the new action letter from the SEC saying, as a lead angel, you could get carry. We looked at about three years of syndicate deals and we’ve done, I don’t know, 39 or 40 of them now. And we said, okay, we also want to have committed capital that we can put to work immediately, that we can invest with conviction and where we can take a board seat, we can actually lead the deal, right? So that was just hard to do as a syndicate because you don’t know how much you’re going to end up with or when it’s going to come in. So we had to become even more disciplined on our thesis for how and why we were investing. So what we did is we did a regression analysis against all, at the time, 75 investments we’d made and said what factor that we can control for at the time of investment is most relevant to high ROI, right, in terms of a good outcome. And the one factor we could control for was the quality of the leadership team. The only place in the world that we’re aware of were millions of dollars that spent training people in leadership, per se, is in the military. And then there are a whole bunch of network effects that occur post putting the money in there, but we like deals and we look closer at deals where there’s a military veteran on the founding team. So we’ve spent now 10 plus years watching early stage technology ecosystem and connecting with networking, marketing, describing the value proposition of having a military veteran, a former Navy SEAL, a jet pilot, you name it, wherever they happen to have come from, but they’ve been steeped in leadership training. And what you described at the beginning of the question is my long way to get around to it of, you know, World War II saw a significant number of individuals come out and become entrepreneurs. What has happened since then and there’s specific data and indicators showing that it decreased significantly, but has started to come back significantly and that’s due to a whole bunch of things. The awareness that you could become an entrepreneur has become much more pervasive. The tools that allow you to become an entrepreneur are also easier to access for everyone. And there are actual organizations that happen to be on the board of one of them called Bunker Labs that is all about helping military veterans and military veteran spouses pursue entrepreneurship. And there are 40 plus chapters across the United States with a full ecosystem that it helps enable, you know, much like a tech star, but it’s called Bunker Labs and so there are many organizations like that that have enabled that to occur. But we are still seeing of our 100 to 150 deals a month that we have inbound at the VC fund, 6 to 10 percent of them have military veterans associated with them. So we’re still in the non trivial numbers of entrepreneurs who have military backgrounds understanding that that’s an opportunity for them and a way to come execute. Military inspired deals and I think we can all agree that the leadership is genuine. I feel like they would be linking up for the LS version with marketing, you know, what’s like the downside or is there no downside, it’s just the same. Yeah, and that’s a fair question. I think that the all of the dynamics that ensue for any startup limited resources unclear battlefield enemies coming in from every direction having to convince people to do something that it seems impossible and or doesn’t fully exist yet and is only in somebody’s mind. Maybe you can map some of it out or plan it and try to show what it is maintaining your integrity with all of the stakeholders. I mean, you just described what it’s like actually on a battlefield, right? So, when you take away actual bullets flying who is able to handle that pressure, uncertainty understanding that you still need to accomplish the mission, you know, I would argue that there’s no better training ground other than having gone through being an entrepreneur before, which is also high on our which is high on our list of we love we love second and third time entrepreneurs as part for investing also, but do the leadership traits that exist in the military apply themselves into more functional capabilities sometimes cyber deals not, you know, non trivial operations and logistics components non trivial but I would offer that in almost all instances it’s not just the it’s never the creativity that makes the venture successful, it’s the execution like you have to go execute so it may not it may not be that the the driving vision or the Eureka moment that occurred in an industry that caused this entrepreneur to say this, but the co founding chief operating or the co founding or the COO if you will, I mean whatever it might be certainly those roles are obvious perfect slots, but we’ve had a lot of phenomenal experience with the creativity and the problem solving and the attack just everything that you want from a leader that you would want from your entrepreneur has already been trained in the military it’s really interesting that we probably had similar leadership training and similar values embedded in lots of different institutions and society but I’m focusing on them and the military had that too but it’s now, it seems like it has a monopoly on creating these leadership and mentoring initiatives for most young people who’ve been the ages of 9 it doesn’t do it anymore the family doesn’t do it anymore definitely not your high school, they all just say do whatever you want, it’s all good there’s no right way, there’s only your way you hear talks about and brought up periodically this thought process of some type of universal obligation for 2 or 3 years of post high school effort, whether that’s peace core or civil core inside of the country or the military where you actually get to learn how to do things how to work with other people how to lead, how to follow which is just as important the military trains and how to lead one of the big issues especially for entrepreneurs and start ups is you can foster and develop this idea of we’re going to collaborate everybody’s got a great insight view opinion from what we’re doing time a decision has to be made to go execute and that’s when we had great collaboration, it’s now time to everybody stop arguing and everybody pull the same direction and the companies that are able to execute with that and understand still and be true to the authentic collaboration where everyone involved is listening and understanding the feedback and then the direction set, the problems arise when everybody still feels like oh their voice at the table and they don’t get that there’s a point in time where you’re done talking about it and you now have to go execute because a competitor is going to be executing and that I think is something that’s huge and I do agree with you that the military does a very, very good job of describing that leadership and training in that leadership component for your role, for your spot why it’s important for you to execute when no one’s watching all of those are incredibly important lessons that are taught it’s not exclusive to the military interestingly, it’s just everyone in the military got that so it’s a great pool from which to choose from I think that you get you know team sports especially through highly competitive environments has much of the same many of the same leadership characteristics, you’re a part of a team, this is important for why it’s important for you to do what you’re doing in some scenarios you’re leading, in some scenarios you’re following the discipline of showing up every day the fact that other people are depending on there’s a lot of great elements or components to that and then also you know there’s nothing like trial by fire so if you’ve been through the meat grinder of entrepreneurship it helps you the second time most certainly for sure basically on my 12th startup now and you’ve learned a lot but also a lot of they call this a macro investing they say if you do business as usual you want like a 50 year old who’s been through the ups and downs have seen it all but once the paradigm shifts and macro investing the dollar suddenly goes on a long term trend to go up you want a 20 year old who just has a Robinhood account basically just playing the most risky thing and cannot even imagine there’s an ups and downs so I feel like maybe entrepreneurship is now the old entrepreneurship the way I understand it we understand it maybe it’s morphing into something I don’t know what it is yet and I don’t know how applicable the old rules are but I feel like it’s morphed already and what I found interesting when we talked about that earlier about the TV show most Silicon Valley there’s a big divide between Silicon Valley entrepreneurs and LA in terms of Hollywood so there’s very little overlap on the creative side a lot of those avenues that LA provides in terms of reaching your audience creating content that’s so engaging it’s good for a wider audience that’s rarely something that most entrepreneurs think of in Silicon Valley and I find this because a lot of the advertising biggest amount of tech advertising spent is now online so there is YouTube and there’s certain avenues but there’s very little overlap and you did it differently I feel like you are an entrepreneur and you explored the content around very early on 15 years ago what do you think is the future of this will they merge together Silicon Valley and LA more and Hollywood or will they stay separate as they are right now I think that the ecosystem of Los Angeles has been fighting kind of tooth and nail we have phenomenal entrepreneurs we have phenomenal companies and the track record is great cornerstone on demand true car there are lists of what are considered to be real technology companies by Silicon Valley they exist they’ve succeeded they’ve become billion dollar publicly traded companies from inception all the way through the fact that this is the heart of content creation and that mindset and being able to understand how that can evolve into business models is incredibly compelling especially with what’s occurred over the last 5ish years with everything from you know fake news influencers to it’s actually incredibly powerful to be able to understand and think about that and it’s one of the tie in from you say that I took advantage of or was able to learn from what happened with me with the apprentice I sat next to Donald Trump and watch him operate in 2004 around driving the apprentice numbers meaning his outreaches to everybody from Martha Stewart to Rosie O’Donnell that seemed to be out of the blue attacks were literally 2 to 3 weeks before the next season of the apprentice would begin so it was all like this it was a calculated mastering of media of being able to utilize media to effect an outcome which we replicated again 4 years ago in the lead up to the election I think that the companies and the entrepreneurs who are able to think about what the marketing looks like so that it can be effective for whatever they’re doing they win even with a worse product because if you’re in front of the consumer whether your audience is business or consumer side of course the product has to work and meet a certain bar but if you’re adept and you do things very effectively with your marketing it pretty much beats all the other functions hard to figure that out I think Stem Harris was the one who did some research and they realized that Donald Trump had about 100 times the coverage that Obama had during his presidency and the same is probably true before the election 2016 all the way up to 2020 now it’s apt a little and this is you think of them politically I think this is just a genius I think that most of us will never rise to there’s still a huge opportunity for entrepreneurs to play that content game well and I think slightly outside YouTube but nobody thinks of the bigger channels nobody thinks of what’s beyond there and watching documentary about Chris Nolan’s movies and I felt he could as easily be an old school CEO of Silicon Valley he isn’t politically correct these people all know their trade they seem to know exactly what they’re up to so I felt like there is a lot of overlap between those two cultures but somehow they haven’t really clicked what’s happening the next five years I think with the pandemic with kind of the work from anywhere mentality with the what’s happened in and around San Francisco ecosystem and the flight of significant companies Oracle moving to Austin is staggering it’s like the old school bastion the best place to learn how to do enterprise sales we’re leaving to Joe Lonsdale from 8BC saying we’re leaving for a multitude of reasons it wasn’t just one thing it’s definitely there’s been a massive influx of Northern California venture capitalists entrepreneurs into the Los Angeles ecosystem over the last two to four years more so recently and I think that cross pollination will certainly accelerate the time frame for those two ways of approaching business coming together very soon right you broke up everyone’s going to be in Austin very soon yeah I don’t just by land in Austin you don’t even have to go there it’s probably going up it’s so cheap Austin I don’t understand Austin I love it but I don’t understand the place I’m not a happy resident in San Francisco you’re still in LA I’m still here in Los Angeles one of my twins is a really good soccer player and the ecosystem for youth soccer in the United States anyway it’s pretty hard to beat Southern California’s training and professionals and the ecosystem for that and the beach and the weather what would be your catalyst when you say okay that’s it I’m going when PSG or Barcelona asks him into the academy that’s happening next year he turns 11 in three days so it might be another year yeah you might have to wait a little longer okay how do I sag from this one talking about big ideas so one thing that I’ve been trying to to get some traction on is Peter Fields theory I’ve been hyping this up you could say but the idea is this big stagnation out there out of semiconductor and the finance field we haven’t done much of what we set out to do in the 70s and it’s been 50 years and you know I’m a child of the late 90s and I’m born my professional life started with this euphoria for sure but there was a lot of things to be accomplished even through some of the companies went away a lot of things that we’re now seeing the fruits of so I my first question is do you believe in this idea of the great stagnation is it as apparent to you and second do you think what can we do to change this or is it already changing right now I don’t feel strongly either way on trying to define it as stagnation I’m I am of the firm belief as evidenced by the speed at which we were able to the collective we like the not the royal we but everyone kind of got on the same page to target a common enemy called you know COVID 19 for a vaccine and production even though I’m I think I’m 268 millions on the list at the New York Times but for where you are on the line for getting a vaccine based on your zip code your age and health and everything else you know I do believe that we are behind on solving some obvious and primary issues that exist and that we do have the ability I say we’re behind because if we turn our attention to them the same way we turn our attention to solving for the vaccine problem we would accelerate a lot of them I think one of them that is kicking into gear as evidenced by at least on the venture side you know a lot of public statements of people moving into focusing on what we’re going to do about protecting the climate and doing stuff to affect the climate is pretty significant and then another one that I think we’re going to see the part of your second question is we’re shifting gears and moving there’ll be some faster movement in a lot of these I think that the kind of the augmented reality being able to impact everyone’s lives is going to accelerate also the promise that the consumer would be able to have augmented reality in a dynamic environment outside of a closed in room I think is a lot closer than I think everybody got their hopes up on Magic Leap for a while and that didn’t pan out and I think that there are a bunch of up and coming solutions that are going to be able to help solve some of that that allow for a whole lot of neat things to happen Pieces is that technology has been ready you know think about video conferencing has been ready for 20 years but it hasn’t been gotten widely accepted so I think what has and that’s surprising because as it was very apparent I grew up in Germany that the US is a consumer market who is ready to and try stuff out of curiosity but also because it helps you get ahead because you might be double as a professional as your competitor so on the professional and on the personal side I feel there was always a certain curiosity so I thought you went relatively quick compared to senior it seems like a lot of that technology that was developed 20 years ago it happened the adoption happened but when we look back the last 15 years it seems extremely slow and it only was at the largest platforms Apple, Amazon we were able to get through with this and that predicted 15 years ago but as if you feel like we’ve lost a little bit that speed on the consumer side or was it the fault of the entrepreneurs not creating products that are appealing enough or cheap enough for consumers It’s interesting you brought up video conferencing because I think it was about 20 years ago and my first learning experience as an entrepreneur i.e. failed company was a video conferencing company and it was the it was the competitors publicly traded were like VTEL, compression labs I think Tanberg was coming on and we affectionately referred to the video conferencing system as a boat anchor because it was like this giant thing that sat in the corner had 27 ISD inlines plugged into it you needed an operator to come turn it on and do stuff with it and we were raising money because we’d solve for it and I think it was Microsoft and Intel came out with the CUC me little ball that sits on the front of your camera like for like 900 bucks a seat and we were like $300,000 so yes there are some technologies that you would think would have been adopted and move much much faster video conferencing and certainly being one of them obviously that’s accelerated with what’s transpired but I don’t know who to I don’t know it’s difficult to say who to blame because you usually need like a killer app to make something explode and for video conferencing and for a lot of other things associated with remote learning and distance learning the pandemic certainly the killer app that unfortunately literally and figuratively but who’s to say and part of the identification in what I try to do everyday meeting entrepreneurs is think about what are the potential problems that this solves for both right now and then how hard is it get to scale where that becomes a very large opportunity both for all the stakeholders for the end users of the product up to and including also the employees, the bill the partners the shareholders the ecosystem you name it and it is a significant part of the thought process we go through when we’re looking at making final decisions on who we’re going to invest in you can only make certain predictions and there’ll be a problem and you got to get lucky you talk about we only talk to the winners like the people who lost a billion dollars they don’t get invited to the podcast they’re depressed or they became marks to philosophers I say with all humility and I think that our entrepreneurs would back it up that I think Craig and I are pretty good at picking the companies and then we do our best to help after the fact that we’ve been entrepreneurial for so long and have significant networks in certain sectors and have seen this movie before as it relates to execution like we talked about before we’re able to help increase the likelihood of success of the ones we put the money into so it looks like we were geniuses and how we invested and it’s really like a whole bunch of hard work after we put the money in to make it look like we were right for your best investment the one that you always want to talk about you haven’t mentioned it yet so it’s who’s your favorite child which of your children is your favorite so I think for impact right now also in terms of impressiveness of the entrepreneur I would say IDME ID.ME is a favorite investment of mine Blake Hall is solving online identity verification issues and if you’ve seen the massive amount of fraud across the states for people trying to get their very very critical unemployment checks to the point where states had to shut down because the fraud was so bad IDME has systematically turned all of those every state they turn on with the fraud and allows for people to get their checks out but they’re doing really amazing things protecting your personal individual identity and allowing you to be both ubiquitous Facebook login and secure like the only place you can log in your Wells Fargo three factor you know where’s your mother grow up somebody calls you and they can do both that level of security and be ubiquitous it’s a pretty phenomenal company if you think about the identity layer of the internet it’s going to become payments it’s going to become travel we need a crypto for identity because the internet was built weirdly enough because they were researchers right because they wanted anonymous traffic to an extent but they also felt like this is never going to be an issue there’s not going to be any bots those are all intellectuals monetary transactions are never covered we waited ten years from the two thousands to get out there because it wasn’t global we had crypto but for the identity layer there hasn’t been someone who is able to establish such a layer and yes there is it’s IDME and majorly flying under the radar purposefully but with this last six months of stopping the fraud now has bad guys attention we just hired the full time CISO we’ve seen what’s coming and we know what’s coming but I’m very excited about that company another one it’s a second time entrepreneur for us it’s called Gretel and GitHub for data so they’re able to create synthetic data that allows developers to work with data sets, synthetic data sets but it does even better than being the data for compliance reasons, for red tape for personal information or personal health information reasons is not shareable they enable that data to be the synthetic better than the equivalent of that data because they can fill out missing pieces of the data set with the synthetic component and it’s actually more valuable to be used it’s for second and third time entrepreneurs that came together for this Alex Watson is the founder and the CEO he sold his last company that he started to Amazon and launched the product in AWS to much success and they are doing some really amazing things by enabling anybody who needs to or wants to for whatever reason to work with data an example over 60 year old data set for heart disease they were able to open up the data set by creating a synthetic layer so there’s no way to get to the identifiable components populated some of the sectors that were missing of the data for like the females over 65 because there wasn’t a lot of samples and they increased the correct diagnosis capability by like 7% so that’s going to impact major major population does not mock up data this is real data that they source from somewhere else and then they monitor and they provide it to a third party client correct they can come into a private company or the government or whoever else analyze it create a synthetic data set that better than mirrors the original data set because it fills it out appropriately and then your developers and an analyst can knock yourself out with it without worrying about compliance and make decisions and understand what’s going on it’s really powerful weeks ago to Michael and he mentioned the biggest challenges in life sciences is really to get the data set up and run his favorite AI program and start with really shitty data set yeah if you can even if you even get the data set if you can get to it and then it’s not it’s not smooth if you do a whole bunch of work on it before you start trying to work with it of those images like hands images that’s already huge and stock data from young for free you know the data sets have many other industries to that industry but in life sciences it hasn’t this is what could make the biggest impact because if you get this right much better when they published that finding the inbound from the health and life sciences was astronomical for people wanting to say of course they need to show that it’s secure that there’s no way to reverse manipulate the synthetic component to get to the PII or the PHI all of those dynamics but this is a phenomenal team Greylock followed us in and led the A round last month what is your gut feeling those deals have changed they’ve gotten better they’ve gotten better valuations worse valuations more necessity entrepreneurs this is more well thought through because people have more time what do you feel right now from the current deal flow in the last couple of months so our deal flow it definitely slowed down March April everybody was on both sides I think most VCs were also triaging their existing portfolios and saying okay what does this mean for us at this last a long time and entrepreneurs also were like I don’t think anybody’s paying attention to us or trying to put money in everybody’s trying to figure out what’s going on so let’s look in so it slowed down both directions it has since kicked back up absolutely I like the terminology you just used from necessity but we’re like we definitely emphasize and focus on must haves or need to haves not nice to haves because those things fall by the way first things they’re always second priority and they always fall by the wayside if there’s anything else going on our deal flow that we’ve been looking at I would describe it as the companies that we’re seeing and we’re looking at closer and it’s probably a combination but they’re I want to say farther along farther along in revenue farther along in product build out more thoughtful and exactly what the unit economics are going to be if they’re a little bit earlier on how it’s going to operate and much less hey here’s a great idea here’s what we’re thinking about I’ve got a team cobble together that’s just we just those seem to drop like the no way is significantly dissipated in terms of value I have always believed that the best deals are always competitive and they get priced to market and anything in and around San Francisco or up north is more expensive it could be identical team identical it’s just more expensive than outside of that area but I’d say that there’s been there was definitely a deflation and I think it’s about back to where it was before the pandemic since you’re an expert what I want your opinion on is crowdfunding and the way that crowdfunding has opened up now and I talked to Darren a couple of days ago about what’s coming that’s already being in the launch or published yet but it’s going to change a lot that’s a very solid series B a series C impact on the venture capital and the angel business would it make it better or easier so 100% agree that crowdfunding and the ability to access capital is getting easier every year and the initial rounds of financing I think that crowdfunding lends itself to consumer facing products and services much more so than it does to enterprise solutions and or longer term solutions so for kind of consumer market elements it means there there’ll be more ideas funded farther so that they’ll have an opportunity to pivot and or get traction so that they can get institutional backing but we just experienced a crowdfunded deal called Heroic who for years I think he’d raised 10 million serial entrepreneur very successful sold it but he’d only raised 10 million dollars over the years for two prior companies and in launching this crowdfunding element it’s texting me after six hours after 12 hours after three days where it went 1 million, 3.5 million 10 million it’s pretty staggering I mentioned when you think of it if you have a way to get your message in front of a consumer because they’re not as discriminant because they don’t have the expert knowledge and a thousand or two in a thousand the exact numbers obviously differ slightly but if you have an audience that’s kept up because you’re an influencer you have an outreach to people that you’re going to fill this route it’s not his experience that the investors are discriminant so much they convert there as a consumer to how much money you raise it’s pretty linear yeah I think that there’s most definitely an opportunity to do that what will likely transpire is there’s going to be lightning in a bottle there’s going to be great things that occur like I said they get enough money to figure something out pivot and get excitement level somewhere else so there are going to be success stories like you said we cover the success stories we don’t cover the failures but we’re going to have a whole lot of data against these crowd source entities where 90 plus percent of them probably aren’t going to by the numbers just starting a business running a business 90 plus percent of them aren’t going to work out so there’ll be an initial excitement level where a lot of money flows in and a lot of money like you said if you have a significant number of influencers but I’m only getting five bucks from every person or ten bucks or a hundred bucks or a thousand bucks or whatever the numbers allowed to be I consider it if I’m the consumer it’s kind of like instead of buying lottery tickets I’m buying into that system where I can actually experience something with it instead of just the balls pop up for the lottery I can buy that coffee drink or I can get the new glasses holder whatever it might be I still think though that for instance Gretel that I just described where it’s some AI and around doing statistical analysis and creating synthetic data sets they would probably raise one dollar on crowdfunding because people would be like what the heck is that? Here’s the thing, consumer innovation we all think of it and I think that’s kind of normal for VCs unless you have a huge following they kind of look down on them and say there’s nothing behind it can easily be copied I have 30,000 VP level above LinkedIn if I were legally allowed to do fundraising through a mechanism I would I would do it I would get more than one dollar I got to talk to LinkedIn about Microsoft about switching over the thought process around let’s turn it into a fundraising platform happen they’re going to have an add on like a day of recruiting they’re going to have fundraising 100% that’s going to happen very soon yeah totally this is where the money comes from this is where I test my startups I don’t think they all do this most valuable tool I’ve had maybe either Excel or LinkedIn I don’t know which one is more powerful for me over the course of time Excel is pretty good I can’t really say because LinkedIn really went through a really bad period and I worked with one of the founders and you worked probably with Reid Hoffman I worked with Constantine for a couple of weeks and Constantine Garricka and at the time LinkedIn wasn’t growing very quickly it never made any money and then it really took off for a while and then it kind of seemed to go the way of Google Plus but now I feel the last few years it’s like back I don’t know what drives these things social networks I have no idea how it actually works there’s some that just take off and others just die out in a matter of months I don’t know if you have any insight there well you break so interestingly when when my finale of The Apprentice was on Burnett had structured a relationship with Yahoo to talk about the show and the content and the excerpts and all that stuff and then they did a deal with Frenster do you remember Frenster yes of course I’m that old I had about like 50,000 Filipino followers on Frenster because they put our things up and I never figured out a way that that was any way for that to create value for what I was doing that’s probably a bad entrepreneur and couldn’t figure out a way to utilize that asset but like you said Frenster kind of I think it’s dead I haven’t heard of it or seen it in a decade plus so if you know anyone who can describe exactly what the magical elements are for making a social media platform I know there are a lot of people who spend a lot of time studying it and I haven’t gotten to the bottom of it but I have been since 2004 early adopter of LinkedIn I think it’s a phenomenal business tool and again as long as the information is accurate i.e. identity verification has to be confirmed that I feel they’ve recently invested into I think this is great or maybe it’s just the people who use it is I always felt they have their living CV right it’s an automatically updating CV that’s how it started out but what they haven’t really focused on is that CVs are basically worth less than years ago and even more so now what you want to know is the specifics of someone’s knowledge you can say an atomic level and these little insights where you see this guy really knows what he’s talking about he didn’t just put it in his CV and not just the reputation like you say in terms of followers but actually has deep knowledge in certain parts of that problem obviously doesn’t have that paper and these things you know it could be YouTube videos it could be small pieces of this is what I know about this and if you ever have a question reach out to me and I give you whatever the first hour for free and then you pay $400 or $600 an hour and I think this is what always was missing from LinkedIn and now they’re really encouraging this knowledge sharing slightly back at the atomic level and I think that’s finally happening maybe that’s where this thing’s a success so I was an investor in Clout which tried to Joe Fernandez is the founder tried to create a score around some of those elements to give more of that granular how well or how much do you know a particular subject and a good friend of mine worked at which was a phone of dial in for expert advice or assistance or help on everything from surfing to and it ended up going psychics and sex amazing consumer brain there the limbic brain does it sell around is it like a black market money this was also friendster era that happens going into crypto what do you think was your general opinion on crypto and you know we had the ICOs apparently they didn’t go anywhere because it’s never heard of those companies again they seem to all have vanished or maybe they do something in the background and we’ve never heard about it again and then there’s a lot of startups who put all their money in crypto because the Fed is going to ruin the dollar and just a lot of crazy news about crypto obviously crazy hype right now what do you feel is going to be the bitcoin of 2030 so there are categories of information that I do not profess to know anything about and I’m going to say I’ve been studying crypto and blockchain for a while and I’m going to still raise my hand as not being able to answer intelligently significant questions and not I’m not a picker for crypto by any stretch I know I have a lot of good friends who’ve been in it for a long time and we have invested out of fund one and fund two more in what I’ll describe so in fund one we have a company called zabo and we think plaid for crypto so everybody who’s building any kind of app doesn’t want to try to build their own wallet build their own capability zabo enables that for those entities and they spend all their time kind of like a tableau or a domo working on the connectors and the apis and make sure it works so that you can plug into zabo for whatever and you allow your users to use whatever they want that’s one it’s more like picks and shovels for crypto than actual crypto so we can start learning and get smarter and better at it plus came in and highly advised from a very good friend of mine who’s got a crypto company second one we just invested in a fund two it’s called transmute and Carol, phenomenal entrepreneur she is building a solution for the supply chain around the steel industry and all of the dynamics for import and export and one of the things we did as we courted and met and worked through how we were going to operate and decided to invest was she had crypto up front blockchain as part of the immutable ledger up front in the presentations both on the selling side to entities and also in the fundraising side and it became pretty clear to me that no one really cares which ledger or where you’re located in the industry for being able to securely understand exactly where that cargo has come through which port who touched it who didn’t touch it it doesn’t matter they just want the solution so the blockchain is kind of immaterial just needs to be an immutable ledger that you know is functional and works and is correct and then similarly it wasn’t a sell about crypto or blockchain or anything to do with it really it wasn’t so that those investors weren’t there it was more it was more a sell around the supply chain and understanding exactly how she was going to transform how goods come into our borders and sitting customs and how all of that works and what that looks like way more than it was about blockchain and crypto so when we shifted those ideas and actually just said hey it’s going to be part it’s baked into the ecosystem it completely changed the dynamic significant more traction both on selling side for both customers and for fundraising well I listened to a couple of partners where we see who there’s a couple of funds that only do decentralized finance which is based on crypto I only understood half of what they said I didn’t even know what it was certainly they were smart and they certainly know what’s going on 100% more than me but I felt like once you reach a way you got so far out of society where obviously your technology is correct or maybe it is I can’t judge but if you can’t explain to anyone what you’re up to and what this thing actually does you’re entering a pretty high P place right that feels like 1999 where you come up with these crazy stories that tilt the high but you’re like I couldn’t explain it to my grandfather what I was up to this is not a good sign so let’s but it was just back in the year or I’ll take 5% of my total holdings I know it’s coming I know there are a lot of great concepts around it I know there are a lot of things forcing us that direction in some fashion no way can I pick the right one so where’s my mutual fund of cryptocurrencies and like somebody who spends all their time doing it I’ll give them a small percentage of my portfolio to invest in that sector because something’s happening I thought this is a sound from my point of view of decentralized finance but there’s a lot of intermediary steps and the way this discussion has been elevated seems odd to me it sounds like ICOs to me but this might be just yeah I’m still a novice I’m still learning yeah yeah that’s very honest what it’s you gotta go over the times you know I’ve read you parts of your book and I know as part of this you actually went to to entrepreneurs to businessman idols like Ross Perot and interviewed them right and you asked them what can we learn or what are these values we can extract from them do you feel that was something that really shaped you that you could absorb or was it something where you said I did this for a couple of years and it worked and I was really excited about it but in the end the market has changed so much that some of these values I could never use again my book called take command 10 leadership principles I learned in the military and put to work for Donald Trump that is the longest like I think in history you know take command is the name of the book but that is part of the title and nobody remembers that the publisher wanted that second part in there for keywords I guess so that is what you really thought I won I won a game show like whatever FTC law it was a game show and I won a prize my prize was paid out over 12 months right and you know I was you know I wasn’t a super accomplished entrepreneur at the time I built a couple companies knew I wanted to be an entrepreneur finished law in business school and I’m like okay I want to write a book that meshes everything that I think about this entire process right I can I can write a book about leadership principles because that’s key for me and it doesn’t matter what sector you’re in it doesn’t matter what time of the decade you’re in but I said okay I’m gonna write if I’m gonna write this book and it also helps and you think about influencers I was on a show with 30 million watch a finale I publish a book I do a speaking engagements and I’m thinking okay is this a business model can I can I help you know people who are looking for guidance and leadership get guidance and planning there’s a lot of stuff that I’ve learned in the military that I help them apply help entrepreneurs help people coming out of the military who want to be entrepreneurs and I was like okay the media kept asking me do you think your military background helped you with the show do you think your military background helped you with X and I’m like I finally got almost pissed off like you don’t under like you don’t understand anything about what happens in the military if you’re asking me spending four years at West Point and three and a half years active duty seven and a half years in my formative years of my life leading you know dozens and hundreds of people with tens and hundreds of millions of dollars before I was 25 years old do you think that helped me with anything like I you know it was almost my book was almost like talk to the hand instead of talk to the hand just read the book okay and and I said but wait a second I’m just Kelly Purdue from Los Angeles I got you know I went I went to West Point went to law and business school like I haven’t done anything that remarkable I want to show so I need to bring in credibility and validate that these these are the 10 leadership principles I think are super compelling that I learned the military and that put to work in business let me go ask billionaires who’ve been successful in business who also have military veteran backgrounds to see if they are there we’re aligned that these are the principles and why they work so that’s what the story of the book is each chapter is one of the principles I talk about an excerpt from the show that’s the weave in and also the reason I was even able to write a book but I also what we’ve been you know Roger Stalback Pete Dawkins right you know and it was funny because for people who don’t know who Pete Dawkins is West Point graduate Heisman Trophy winner you know general super super well known commanded forces was I think at the time I met him was the chairman at city bank so I got him to have a meeting with me right I got a 30 minute block block of time with him and I walked in and I’ve got my old school recording recording device and I’m asking him I’m doing I’m writing a book on leadership you stop right there I spent the last 30 years of my life researching leadership and he points to this bookshelf and it’s every every leadership book ever written three of our four of them by him right and he’s like let me boil it down for you leadership is the ability to motivate others to action period that’s it can do it with sticks you can do it with carrots you can talk about all the different mechanisms but that’s what leadership is and it was things like that that are in my book that I you know I couldn’t there’s I could have paid for that so it was incredible experience for me and is also a validation of what I had learned from being in the military it’s not like integrity is not taught in the military it is taught in the military but it’s like you get that from your family like you were saying earlier right a lot of the social institutions like impeccability yeah you want to make a good first impression passion if you don’t exhibit a passion what you’re doing as an entrepreneur as a business person like you’re nobody wants to be a nobody wants to be around a downer like if you’re down and negative and nasty all the time about stuff you just not going to spend your life alone eventually right so these are not like aha these are the nobody knew that these were leadership principles there are things that we focus on things that are very very important when you’re in the military and are actually trained super impactful when you’re in business and the leadership principles we look for when we’re investing in entrepreneurs I think you just mentioned that but you know what I want to do to to acquire is if you go deep down and if you say you know this is the I wrote a book and there’s leadership principles since nobody can listen to this because it’s not broadcast at all I’m just curious so those are things where you feel like they really helped me a lot and indeed they’re all true basically forever they’ve been true for thousands of years but we might only know about them now or maybe we discovering them but this is something that helped me much more than I expected I think you just said that I was just curious because a lot of people talk about values and talk about business but they don’t really believe it I feel right it’s a bit of an act it’s a bit of a motivational coach then yeah no I I’m training my children with these okay yeah I mean you know selfless you know it’s duty right which is do what you’re supposed to do when you’re supposed to do it half of the problems in the existence would go away if that just one thing was for uncentered do what you’re supposed to do when you’re supposed to do it right impeccability my children are not very open to that idea impeccability don’t turn in crap cross your T and dot your I yes there’s a diminishing return on what you can get done especially in an entrepreneurial environment but if you’re delivering a deck to a venture capitalist and you don’t spell their name right you haven’t done any like understand what you know you that’s how much attention you’re going to pay to your product why am I I have been given the honor of investing money on behalf of LPs and this is part of what investing in military entrepreneurs is we have entrusted military entrepreneurs with our sons and daughters in harm’s way they that’s sacred you think about that when you’re an officer in the military and you’re in charge of these people their lives right it’s not too dissimilar when you give the money when you when I invest my money with you you have a they feel a fiduciary responsibility it’s not like oh it’s other people’s money I’m just spending it and don’t care about it so there’s a there’s a very serious element to that I’m not saying non military people don’t necessarily feel that way I’m just there you that’s how they feel because they’ve been in that environment it’s a bit like you know the the Israelites right you’re part of a chosen group and you kind of you gotta make up your mind do you want to stay part of that chosen group or not and you know that’s my related question I always ask that do you think religious values and especially Old Testament much more than New Testament values they or outside of those two religions like Buddhism or Hinduism just do you feel that the Old Testament values make a big impact and aren’t they describing something very similar to entrepreneurship so I have not tried to run of exact parallel of the ten commandments against my ten leadership principles but integrity is on there different I can tell you loyalty loyalty is on there right so yeah you know there’s a lot you know if you push whatever we just talked about if you push this to a couple of obstruction layers higher you’re not just ending up in Exodus and the ten commandments you’re ending up you know with the spirit of you know the Bible is a long document but changes and people do weird stuff they’re not angels right they’re like crazy people and there’s prostitutes and lots of weird stuff going on but you realize that there is this struggle for I don’t want to say the word more superiority but being the best person you can and then I thought you were going to say the struggle for perfection yeah attempting or Maddo’s hierarchy self actualizing right acting fulfill your potential and acting with and I think about it with my kids like oh I hope they go up and be happy I’m like I don’t know I want them to be happy I want them to be purposeful I don’t have a purposeful life so that they can contribute and feel like they’re contributing maybe that’s you can’t tell this to any of the parents in Silicon Valley they think it’s all happiness that’s all with what comes which is really strange and ruins the children’s lives yes my point of view but it’s just me right I’m definitely not in a hierarchy and I go to my children’s school that’s not going to fly there which is strange right there should be like a beard value in our society but some of this has gotten lost because nobody has talked about it I feel like we are in this renaissance you know people haven’t talked about the Greeks for like a thousand years and then they find these books and they say oh man we actually we’re still dealing with the same problem so why don’t we see what the old books say and you’re like the moral issues are actually the same technologies exactly I don’t believe that there’s a shelf life on the 10 leadership principles that I defined that I learned in the military and their applicability to business and or life right they’re just planning perseverance don’t give up planning if you’re not tracking on a plan like I do this I say okay who’s got a business plan it’s like yeah how many pages and everybody’s got a business plan everybody’s thought through it they got a board of directors they got advisors and I’m like how many of you have your life plan written down just five years out and it’s blank stairs well this idea that you have for you actually living your life right now what you know where do you want to live in five years who do you know what’s your family structure look like how’s your you know where are you in your religious progression or not like whatever’s important to you like have you mapped them out because if you’re not if you’re not tracking and measuring it you you’re just floating around and I do believe that there’s a lot of just floating around going on yeah that’s 99% well I want to return that value to you and say what’s next for Kelly what are you going to do in the next five years besides go to a western European country that will take Grant Perdue he’s at Grant Perdue 10 on Instagram you’re going to live in Barcelona and we’ll go to soccer practice with this on but besides that we’re just going to become family men this pandemic has given me some significant time to think about things and I can’t truly ask to be in a very different spot from being able to deploy resources to assist passionate fired up entrepreneurs that want to do change stuff in the world it’s like the best well I hope it’s it’s a maybe get rich slow scheme because it’s not a get rich fast investments are like I feel like I’m enriched along the way because literally every day you meet someone who’s fired up and passionate about changing the world on some dynamic and you help get the sectors and content by how you market yourself and what you focus on and how you do so you see a lot like some of the smartest people in the world who are the most accomplished people in the world that want to without a whole lot of real care about you know my annual salary or how long it’s going to take it’s like five or ten years it’s like it’s a long term component from an entrepreneurial standpoint and you know you can help them I know I know I’m able to help them so that’s a pretty phenomenal position to be in and I’ve had a you know over the years a significant inbound like hey we’re going to run for office you’re going to do this you’re going to do that and wherever I think that I’m able to move the needle the most whether it’s from you know having these leadership principles be abstracted a couple times and be objectives or things that we would want to aspire for I’m I’m keeping I’m keeping options open which I guess is that is that form of the aversion to risk that we talked about earlier yeah you do like we talked about but I think that what we just mentioned that but running for office obviously it feeds our ego but on the other hand we have this horrible class of politicians that we elected I mean I didn’t like them but the people run me that is that that’s why I’m in San Francisco you know like Jesus said you don’t have to care but the healthy you want to care about the sick so I need to be where the sick people are and in that sense so much has gone wrong with public policy maybe because we were too comfortable because communists were some sort of effect I don’t actually know the reasons and I don’t think people are ready to make a big shift yet but the time is coming and I think this is I don’t want to say your religious awakening but there’s definitely a change and focus on public policy in order to you know salvage of what’s gone wrong and it’s gone wrong because the times were good enough and we didn’t have a big enemy and everything was fine right I mean this is not the end of the world I’m just saying people like you who have the direct record and have the public recognition in a public office you know you can change the life of millions 40 million Californians and the hard people yeah it is it’s that duty right do what you’re supposed to do when you’re supposed to do it like the higher calling the servant leader mentality and DNA that Craig and I have and look for in the entrepreneurs too and how we invest and what we invest in and trying to think about what’s the impact I mean our kind of long term vision for moonshots capital has always been not oh fun too fun for fun it’s more like a company where we have been able to fund the next pick one the next unicorn CEO 30% more likely to hire military veterans and these people went out and put their life on the line and some of them are in good condition bad condition but they’ve done significant amounts they perform really well they’ve had leadership training and so thematically for where we could move the needle in what we were doing this felt in a form like giving back Craig’s a Craig’s a my partner’s a Henry Crown fellow and moonshots capitals literally is fellowship that’s the thing that he’s focused on as part of that group to execute against it so it’s a it’s a mission kind of unto itself to enable you know some pretty amazing companies to change the world with some military veteran entrepreneurs incorporated into them who are hopefully hiring military veteran entrepreneurs and like it’s a cycle you know where that 5 to 10 year time time period is I you know 10 year times or 10 year vehicles we just raised fun too so I’m in the investment periods three to six years usually so I’m good for the next three to six years with this execution but I don’t know what the next iteration is so well I’m excited I’m really looking forward to it and I I hope you consider coming back and telling us what your immediate updates and how these plans have evolved over time that’d be fantastic Torsten thanks for having me on thanks for coming awesome I really enjoyed it me too you

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