Xavier de le Rue (Extreme Snowboarding ‘on the edge’)

In this episode of the Judgment Call Podcast Xavier de le Rue and I talk about:

  • How Xavier find his perfect locations and mitigates the enormous risk of his hobby and profession?
  • What video games and jumping off a cliff have in common?
  • How Xavier grew up to be a winter sports athlete (and the surprising story of his family of athletes)?
  • What to do in an avalanche?
  • How Xavier’s popular Youtube movies are actually being filmed.
  • The joys of snowboarding in Antarctica.
  • Are the Himalayas the final frontier for ‘extreme snowboarding?
  • Xaviers new podcast The Sustainability Dialogues Podcast

Xavier de le Rue is a World Champion of Snowboarding, Youtuber, Daredevil of Extreme Snowboarding who drops off 150 degrees from a mountain cliff before having his morning coffee. You may reach him via his website.

Xavier also hosts The Sustainability Dialogues Podcast.

Video credit for the Youtube episode:


Welcome to the Judgement Call Podcast, a podcast where I bring together some of the most curious minds on the planet. Risk takers, adventurers, travelers, investors, entrepreneurs, and simply mindbogglers. To find all episodes of this show, simply go to Spotify, iTunes, or YouTube, or go to our website, judgementcallpodcast.com. If you like this show, please consider leaving a review on iTunes, or subscribe to us on YouTube. This episode of the Judgement Call Podcast is sponsored by Mighty Travels Premium. Full disclosure, this is my business. We do at Mighty Travels Premium is to find the airfare deals that you really want. Thousands of subscribers have saved up to 95% in the airfare. Those include $150 round trip tickets to Hawaii for many cities in the US, or $600 life lead tickets in business class from the US to Asia, or $100 business class life lead tickets from Africa round trip all the way to Asia. In case you didn’t know, about half the world is open for business again and accepts travelers. Most of those countries are in South America, Africa, and Eastern Europe. To try out Mighty Travels Premium, go to mightytravels.com slash mtp, or if that’s too many letters for you, simply go to mtp, the number four, and the letter u.com to sign up for your 30 day free trial. I’m here today with Xavier de la Rue, and Xavier is world famous. He’s a world champion in snowboarding. He’s also, besides being a daredevil of snowboarding, he’s also now a YouTuber, and he runs his own podcast, the Sustainability Dialogues podcast. Welcome to the judgment call. How are you, Xavier? Hello, I’m very, very good. I’m on a different time zone, obviously. It’s night time now. I’m in Switzerland, and I’m recovering from a little injury underneath, but I’ll be back on snow very soon. Well, then we fit in very well. We’ll help you with the recovery. We hopefully get some interesting tales today, and I really appreciate you doing this. I know you’re busy, and I know the winter season is normally your busy season. What I find so interesting… With an injury, sorry I cut you, but with an injury, I’ve got a lot more time. Yeah, we got really lucky. We got really lucky. How bad is it? Will you be able to ride the season? Or is it like… Yeah, I’m going to be riding in the months or so. It’s something that I needed to do for a long time. It was just my knee rubbing. I think I kind of worked on my knees quite a lot over the years. It’s not bad. I thought it was bad, and so I never went to see the doctor, but then I finally went to see him. It’s actually nothing. Yeah, so I’ve done it, and it’s great because there are a lot of avalanches right now. It’s like a super unstable snowpack in the mountains, so it’s a bit of a weird situation that we’ve never had ever, so there’s been a lot of accidents. I’m in a way happy to just switch off, go away for a bit, and then I’ll come back fresh and ready to leave some new adventures. Well, that would be my first topic. I think you’re helping me with my sideways. You really fit the definition of this podcast to a T. We’re trying to bring together risk takers, and usually just by risk taking, we mean people take a certain conviction of theirs and put it against an opinion that’s outside the mainstream, and often they risk their reputation. They risk their own money. They lost billions of dollars, but there’s relatively few people who actually risk their life. You go out there and people will see it in the background, some of the videos that you graciously allow us to show in the background. To someone who doesn’t have a lot of exposure to the snowboarding and to skiing and mountaineering, to me, they just look incredible. The potential for injuries and the potential for accidents seem from the outside. I’m definitely not a snowboard insider. It seems like you’re risking your life on a daily basis or weekly basis. Do you feel the same, or do you think once you get into it, once you get all the experience, and you’ve been doing this for 20 years, or if not longer, it feels kind of safe to you? No, it doesn’t. It’s a bit of a it’s something that’s really tough with this sport, actually, because I really believe strongly that it’s the most beautiful sport there is in the world. At the same time, it’s the trickiest, because you play on an element that’s really hard to control. That’s the snowpack, like the snow. You can study as much as you want. You can be with however many experts. You can take however many measures that you want. There’s always going to be risks. You cannot do all that riding all the time. Not saying, okay, this is good to go. It’s bad to go. It’s never 100%, so there’s always the risk that’s out there, and you always play with it. You’re always in a bit of a crisis management, I would say. That’s something that’s kind of very tough to handle over the years, I would say. Sometimes you feel good about it, and then sometimes it just starts to weigh on you. It can be tricky, but it can be magical. It’s one of the things in life you could be like, I should stop because it is stupid, but you keep going. I’ve been going away from your question, but to answer your question, do I risk my life every day? To a certain extent, in a way, yes, things can happen. We minimize the risk. We really try to do everything possible to always study everything to take the right measures, the right people, everything, but still things can happen. I feel like what you guys do is a bit like the formula one of snowboarding. You go out there and you really test the boundaries and the hills and the mountains and the cliffs you are snowboarding on. They seem to be completely untouched. They seem like you’re the first snowboarders or pretty much the first anyone with skis or something similar is on these hills. How do you mitigate the risk there? Do you scope them out with drones? Do you scope them out with helicopters? How do you find the perfect place in the first place, and then how do you find out where you actually want to be particularly with your snowboard? I’m not sure if that is preplanable. Do you know exactly, and I think it’s called a line, do you know exactly your line before you go up on that mountain? So that’s a lot of questions in one, but I think it’s a good way to define what I do exactly, because it’s just literally going and trying to write those lines that are far out there that seems unreachable. So they could be kind of like on the sides from your ski resort, or they could be just at the other end of the world in Antarctica, let’s say. For many years, I’ve done it kind of fairly locally in Alaska, so with helicopters, using kind of these kinds of means. And then like further on, I’ve been going a lot more like to exotic places where there was like some regions that really made me dreams. There was never like really one run that I was going like across the world for. It was always like kind of a style of mountains that I was looking for, and it was not necessarily just about that one run, but it was also about telling the story on what it took to get there. So for example, in Antarctica, we took a boat, you know, it was like a lot of suffering to the waves, and then like studying the snowpack, and then writing some small lines until we got to write the mega big lines. So it’s kind of trying to show everything that it took to kind of write those lines. And yeah, usually, so you know, a descent, like if you do a really serious run, it’s something that you’re going to study sometimes for a few days. So you’re going to go in front of it, you’re going to take picture, you’re going to memorize it, you’re going to try to fill the snow, you might write some things on the side to try to get as many as much information as you can. So that whenever you get out there, and whenever you decide that it’s good to go, you’re going to have quite a good plan in your head. And, and yeah, you’re going to know more or less like pretty much exactly which are the tricks, which are the key points where you need to go through. And you’re going to know very precisely your line in a way. So it’s, yeah, it’s a big of a process. It’s a bit of a process. It’s not something that you get by just going up in the mountains every day writing, like free writing, even, you know, it’s something that’s quite specific and that you develop over time. You know, especially when you’re doing films, and you’re doing free competitions and things like this, it kind of makes you really, you know, writing that style and we really get that process in your head. And then eventually, you start to really, you know, have that, that way of seeing the mountains that kind of just gets into you. And that’s the way you write after that. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, it looks breathtaking. The obviously the scenery is just breathtakingly beautiful. But when we look at the videos, we see you and sometimes there’s another writer, and you’re like this little dot, and then you basically go 150 degrees vertical, and then you jump over a cliff. Like when you jump over a cliff, is that something you know exactly, you know, that’s that long, that long a jump, right? That’s say 15, 15 yards, 20 yards, 100 yards, I don’t actually know how long the jumps are because of the perspective. I have no feeling for that. Do you know exactly where you need to land or is there and it seems like there’s only seconds in between you, you go down from that peak of the hill until you make that jump and then you actually go into a more snowpack. Do you model it out in your mind? Or do you literally just go there and see how you you’re in a flow and then basically your mind decides for you? Like how conscious is this process in the first place? No, like when you write a line, there is there are some parts of the line where you’re just going to take it as it comes. But you’re going to have some key features and jumps and cliffs are part of those where you have you’re going to have to know exactly where you’re going to go through them. So for example, a jump, like to give you a perspective. Now, if you watch a cliff from the bottom, you’re going to see a cliff man. That’s like quite easy to spot and to recognize. But from the top, everything looks kind of snowy. So it’s really hard to project the vision you’ve had from the bottom and put it in your head when you’re at the top and recognize all the features. But when you’re going to jump, it’s mandatory to know exactly which direction you should go precisely because you don’t want to jump and land anywhere because it’s way too risky. So that’s something that we take quite seriously. So you try to kind of gauge the size of the cliff by comparing it to whatever there is at the top. And when you’re at the top, you’re going to it’s going to give you a bit of a dimension of the jump. And then you’re going to use some of the feature that you’ve been spotting. So for example, if on the cliff, there was a bit of a wind leap or a bit of an alignment with rocks, that’s going to give you a bit of a direction. You know that, okay, I should not go, for example, left from the angle of the wind leap on top of the cliff. So it’s like kind of you play it by ears a bit with a scenario, with the light, with the snow, with the features around. But you don’t want to mess too much around. And yeah, I would say that the way we work is not necessarily to try to be ever precise about everything, about everything we need to write. But it’s like we try to be ever precise about the things we shouldn’t, we should be careful of. So for example, the angle on the jump, you should not take at all, or the speed you should not take in a certain zone, or the fall you should not take in this particular zone. So this is the things that really stick to your head when you’re at the top of the run. And you kind of shove them into your head, like by just visualizing them. And you kind of put them a bit in a conscious way, I would say. But then when you start writing, you know, because you’ve thought so much about it, it’s been printed in your brain. So you don’t need to think about it anymore. It’s there. So you don’t need to think and you can just let the flow go. And it will make you take more or less the right decision. If you’ve done your work, your homework well before. Yeah. Yeah. In terms of speed, give us an idea how fast you guys actually go there. It looks like you go 100 miles an hour. Do you have like a speedometer to tell or you only know from the video yourself? Yeah, it’s actually funny, but I never ever took a speedometer with me. But I don’t think we reached 100 miles. And it depends also some technical lines, we would go very slow, we would go maybe 10 miles an hour in some lines, because it’s very technical. But I would say that when you see us going fast, maybe we’re probably going like 70 miles an hour or something like this. Yeah, but it’s such a good feeling, you know, you feel the wind leaning on your body. And you kind of lean a bit on the air and just try to navigate like this. You know, it kind of transformed the feeling. I always find that, you know, that moment when you let the board go, you get like the speed coming up, it kind of starts to feel like a video game a little bit. And it’s such a cool feeling. It’s basically the feeling why I do this. Yeah. Yeah, a lot of people have that feeling. It never really happened for me. I think I’m too tall. I have a terrible balance of when I was on skis. I looked like a complete idiot. I could go down a couple of the black, the black mark, run trails. But I had trouble really enjoying the sport. It was too much, you know, I’m too conscious for this. I’m like, it was too slow, right? I was too slow. And I was my brain was overwhelmed. And I was just eating a lot of snow. And I think a lot of people say that they have that if they have the balance, and if they get into this, this flow and this speed rush, this is really the enjoyment of skiing downhill skiing is for them. And I don’t know if you look deeper into this, there seems to be something deeply psychological about that how we how we inherited this trade that we feel once we go down a hill really fast, it can be a car ride for some people is a car or motorcycle ride. But if you’re in the elements, we we go down any or we are fast, let’s put it this way. And we have this this chart of endorphins. It is something that is extremely attractive to people. And I haven’t really traced it back to, you know, our ancestry, I don’t know if it’s a it’s a fight or flight reflex, right, that we were running like crazy from some lions, or maybe I don’t know, jumping on the over cliffs at the time and trying to save our lives. I don’t know where this comes from. I don’t know if you ever thought about what created this this reflex in many of us to be so happy when we go really fast and beautiful scenery, that often plays a role. It’s funny, but I never ever crossed my mind to ask myself that question, but like hearing you talking, you know, it makes me feel that I don’t know, maybe when you do it, it feels so unreal that you feel probably not human anymore, like that you feel like you’re you’re like a bit of a spirit or whatever, there is out there because, well, I know that what I like about this feeling is that when you reach that stage, you know, you’re you’re just in the zone kind of, I don’t know, like, you know, a lot of people describe this moment where you’re like something where like kind of time slows down, like you’re going faster, but time slows down, you know, like you have the feeling that you control everything around you. And I don’t know there’s something I don’t know if it’s mystical or if it’s physical, but there’s something really which happens and which is really addictive in a way. Yeah, I can I can imagine. I can absolutely see that. Is it is it more like an out of body experience, you think? Or is it more like a you feel like you in control of the element is more like a godlike, like you say, spirit like experience? How does it feel to you? Do you do you think that’s what you were born for? Or you feel like, whoa, this is I kind of I can, I don’t know, in a good way rule the world. How does it feel to you in that moment? This, this, you know, I assumed it was like a minute, maybe two minutes, but it probably seems much longer than that. Yeah. Yeah, no, it’s actually, it’s not that long. Like the runs when you go fast and things like even if they’re really big runs, they can go really quick. It’s just a matter of minutes. And it’s really, really hard to say, you know, where it comes from. But and I think it’s very personal to everyone. But yeah, I don’t know. For me, like when I do this, I think like a part of the good feeling comes from the fact of, you know, like letting go, you know, you just put your board in the line with a run, you just let go and you just kind of not say, screw, screw you, all the danger and everything you just like, you know, it’s like when you’re on stage and you’re shy and everything. And then all of a sudden, you just go like, right, you just shout and you just get everything you have inside you and get it out there. I think I can compare that feeling when you just, yeah, you just let go, you just express yourself, you just let all the boundaries and all the things, you know, which you try to be slowing down and everything. No, fuck it. I’m just going to go down. Sorry, I’m, I’m allowed by where it’s all good. Don’t worry about that. Don’t worry about that. I guess it doesn’t run in your family. Is your family as good at snowboarding as you or did they do skiing? You guys go out together? Or is it just you are you the rebel in the family and everyone else is basically just saying what the hell is he up to? No, my parents were never really into it. Well, my dad was into it when he grew up. He grew up in the mountains as well. But then he’s been working, but we’re five brothers and sisters. And so it must have been a lot to to maintain. Well, it must have, it has been a lot to maintain us for sure. But yeah, I think I don’t know why because it was not our parents really getting us or forcing us into it. But all of my brothers, like my brother, like the youngest, he’s world champion freeriding as well from two years ago. The other one is Olympic medalist in border cross. And like the other one, he just loves mountaineering, just spends his time climbing and stuff. So my sister as well, she was like French champion in border cross and she she’s a charger as well. So I think we’ve got a little something in us which kind of makes us pretty good with risk. I think we keep our head cold. I think that’s kind of a trade that I can see throughout all of us. And I think probably the fact of being of being many brothers and sisters, I think we’ve been inspiring ourselves and kind of breaking boundaries for the others kind of in a way when one was doing something, the other one was just like, Oh, my brother is doing it. So I can do it as well. So I think that probably helped us to to kind of reach further steps. But yeah, it’s actually really cool to share that. And talking of my immediate family, actually, my wife, she used to be a proskier as well. And my daughter is a big charger in freeriding just in her first backflips last weekend. So yeah, I think we’re all in there. There’s something in the water, right? I hear some some resemblance of the Jackson family, right? It’s amazing how that family and maybe it wasn’t, it was certainly pressure involved, but there was also a lot of talent involved, lots of it. How they created so much talent out of one family, right? And a lot of people and a lot of places you will see one rebel in the family that kind of goes out of goes out there and proves him or herself, right? So that’s an amazing story that you guys all can share this. That’s I think that’s pretty rare that there’s actually a healthy competition between the siblings, very often it ends up that the siblings are at odds with each other sooner or later. But you guys seem to really enjoy the same hobby. That’s fantastic. Yeah, there’s never been any bad competition between us. And that’s, you’re right, that’s really amazing. And, and like, you know, I was the first kind of in there. And I remember like so heavily like my, like my first brother who came in on the tour with me back in the days, competing on the World Cup circuit and everything. He was kind of looking up to me, but so many times I thought, oh, it would be so easy for you to just be jealous and be annoyed at me. And he always just took the good things out of me like in a really positive way. And he gave me back also a lot. And he made us both really stronger. And, and I’ve always been really, um, like thankful to him like for that. Yeah, I wish my family would be a little bit like that. Um, but that’s going to be in another life. Did you try any other sports? Did you try basketball or other sports where you felt like you can use similar skills? Basketball is probably a terrible example, but something that’s not winter sport, where you felt like you, you were already really good. Like a lot of NFL players are really good at baseball or even in the NBA. And they, they could have easily had a career in a different, um, kind of sports or in a different league. No, it’s funny you mentioned basketball because it is the good, bad example for me in a way, because yeah, when you grew up as a mountain kid, uh, like you don’t have so much access, you know, to, uh, um, uh, like team sport, you know, and it’s definitely not the, the number one thing. Well, in some places you do, but wherever I grew up, it wasn’t the case. I remember being in high school and being so bad at soccer, it was so bad at basketball, so bad at this sports, because I hadn’t done it much when I was a kid. But for me, it’s been really about like all the outdoor sports, like, and it’s still the case today. I’ve always needed, you know, like to feel that contact with nature. So, so, you know, I spent a lot of my years surfing, uh, like, and especially that we have such a seasonal sport with snow, uh, that it’s been perfect in summers to just spend time at the sea and like, kind of, uh, feel a bit of the sea element into my life. And then, uh, yeah, I do a lot of, uh, paragliding, rock climbing, mountaineering, uh, mountain biking, but, um, yeah, I’m pretty much 100% focused on, on sports that happen, uh, really in nature. Yeah. Except for skateboarding, maybe. Yeah. Yeah. I was about to say, uh, that, that must be something you couldn’t easily do in summer to just, I don’t know, keep your balance and kind of stay in the game. Yeah. Yeah. In summer, in the mountains, there’s so much to do. So, it’s really, uh, it’s something that I enjoy more and more, you know, like just, uh, being out there and you, whatever weather you have, whatever conditions, you can always find something really cool to do. So I really, really love it. Yeah. Yeah. I, I, I know you do, um, a lot of YouTube videos. Um, and some of them, some of them, I want to, I want to ask you about how, how, how often these, these, the things you mentioned, a cure, um, some of the titles of your YouTube videos are how to drop off a cliff. And that’s, that’s a tutorial, right? That’s for other snowboarders. Extreme snowboard free ride lines. What to do in an avalanche, um, ride ice, cross a berkshire and is it, is snowboarding really that dangerous? I, I’m not a practitioner. I have no idea, right? But is that advice that people who do snowboard, they, they, they need that a lot? Like you would see, you would think that’s 90% of the snowboarders, they will face these questions or is it something where you feel like, well, this is really, this is my expert knowledge. I’m, I’m like the bear girls, right? Of snowboarding and I’m sharing this to, to show people kind of that’s, that’s the edge of it. And if you’re on the edge of this, there’s still a way back, right? You, you don’t have to give up. Uh, no, it’s a good question. But yeah, for sure. What I do is, uh, a bit of the tip of the iceberg and the iceberg in a way. And, uh, it’s like probably by far the most dangerous in snowboarding. Uh, and I would say that it’s, uh, a small percentage of the, like population of snowboarders who do that. And for, for sure, if you go on slopes, uh, if you go on holidays, like whenever, like, you’re not going to have to experience any of that, but more and more people really enjoy riding powder, enjoy free riding. And, uh, eventually when you’re free ride, even though you’re not going to go on something super crazy, you’re always going to be facing, uh, those kind of challenges. So even though in my videos, it kind of shows a lot of like pretty full on content, like where, like on big, big runs and big big runs and things, uh, it’s really, uh, applyable for, uh, like any kind of free riding, I think. And, and it is actually something that’s quite mandatory when you do that sport, that you have to go through that knowledge. It’s a bit of a tricky sport. And like right now in the Alps, in the Alps, we have, um, like quite a lot of accidents happening. And like, you know, such a trendy sport, everybody just goes, buys the gear, go out there. And they think, okay, we’ve got the airbag, uh, we’ve got the transceiver, you know, to find, uh, to get found in the avalanche. So we’re all good. But yeah, there’s so much that goes with it. So much knowledge that you need to acquire. And, uh, we really struggle, you know, cause we’ve been advertising free riding for many years and like just, you know, showing, Hey guys, we’re living the dream. You can live it too, you know, I kind of, but, uh, like right now we’re really struggling to show kind of the dark side of the coin a bit. And like the, the reality, uh, you know, which you can face when things go wrong and things do go wrong pretty easily in a way. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I, I was about to say, you guys must feel like, uh, you’re like in the beach, like, uh, you know, the famous movie with Leonardo DiCaprio, where he finds that in beach tells everyone about it. And then the second it’s full, the beach is gone, right? The atmosphere of that beach is gone and the, the, the, the free, the, it’s always hard to define this, but there’s, there’s people who understand the rules without formulating any, any real roles. They understand them because they have so much knowledge. And then once it goes beyond that, where people don’t have the experience necessarily, um, they’re just attracted to, and they’re attracted to that area and to the community, then it’s being ruined. And, uh, so, so that would be my first question. The second is, you know, I, I know you’ve been yourself in an avalanche and I see some of the videos it looks like you’re literally causing a little avalanche, right? And just because you’re snowboarding down there, that must be a huge danger of the sport, right? That you either are part of it, that you cause it for some other people. Um, I don’t, well, how do you, how do you deal with this? Is that it’s something you really worry about for yourself and others? Or that’s something where you say, well, these avalanches happen anyways? Uh, well, you could never think like this, just thinking that the avalanche, uh, happens anyways. Uh, like basically avalanches are like the dark, dark side of the sport. And it’s something that you always fear, that you always prepare for, that you always talk about, but you never control. And, uh, yeah, it’s something that’s really kind of, you know, it’s basically the, the big topic, the big risk of the sport and the thing that’s like not 100% controllable. You know, it’s not like, uh, like, for example, you could think of the crazy sports like base jumping or even like some heavy metal mountaineering, where it’s like, uh, the, the fatality will be based on your mistake a lot of the time. But there in the mountains, and especially with snowpack, it’s like, you know, you could be doing everything right. If you’re at the wrong place at the right time, things could go wrong. So, so it’s just, you know, like that you need to learn to, to write with this in mind so that you’re going to learn to always have a good behavior in the mountain and take all the right steps and, and try to have them become, uh, habit in a way so that you’re going to minimize constantly the risk. So it’s, uh, you know, I was talking of crisis management before. It’s that, you know, like, cause, uh, the crisis is that the risk is always there no matter what you do. So you need to put all the chances on your side all the time. So that’s what you do. And it’s something that’s, uh, like a bit annoying, you know, because it would be so much better to just be out there with your friends. It’s a great part of the day. It’s sunny. You’re having a good time, but now you need to think of danger and think if everyone has got their gear, if everyone is prepared, if everyone knows where to go, uh, like in your run, you need to check every single part of the run. You know, it’s kind of a bit of a downside of the run. And, uh, yeah, at the beginning, like it’s pretty easy to just blind yourself from it, but eventually you get, um, a bit of a recall from the mountain and hopefully not too much of a bad one. And then you realize that this is something that you, you have no choice. It is the price to pay. Like if you want to, to be free riding, you need to be having, okay, you enjoy a little bit, but you need to stay really focused and really aware of everything going around you. And you really need to always be a bit kind of schizophrenic at what’s going to happen. And, uh, no, sorry, not schizophrenic, a bit paranoiac at what’s going to happen, like to try to being able to see the risk come because it could come from many directions. And, um, yeah, it, um, I find this amazing. I heard you say that you, you go so fast because you don’t want to be caught by the avalanche and I’m like, holy shit, that’s really daredevil. It seems to be happening a lot then. Um, well, give me an idea how often in terms of, um, so you do 50 runs, how often would you, would there be a little avalanche at least? And what is, what is kind of the survival rate in the sense of you, you, you can avoid an avalanche or you can be run over by it, but you, you have the equipment. Um, I don’t actually know that the specifics, but I know there is a lot of new equipment that equipment helps you to, you know, be alive for the next couple of hours until you’re being found. Um, is it like scary, but everyone’s fine or what’s, I, I don’t know how much technology has changed over the last couple of years. No, no, no. Well, actually what you said is just perfect because that’s, um, uh, kind of a, uh, uh, a wrong idea that’s going around. Like, kind of, you know, because they are indeed those airbags, uh, like, so whenever you get into an avalanche or a slab, a slab would be a small avalanche. Uh, well, yeah, would be like a tiny pocket pocket of snow, which releases and whenever it goes really big, it becomes an avalanche. Like I like to explain you and, uh, yeah, those airbags, they’re basically bags where you have a handle. It’s your backpack and, uh, whenever something happens, you’re going to pull it and it’s going to deploy some big balloons, which are going to help you to float, help you, which means they’re not necessarily going to make you float. So if you end up in a hole with the avalanche, uh, you, you, you could still get buried and, uh, and it helps your chances, uh, by a little bit, but it depends if you’re above cliffs or if you’re above trees or anything, it won’t help you. Uh, it will not help you at all. Uh, it will actually drag you even more. Uh, but in some cases scenario, it helps you, but never completely. So, so a lot of people think, okay, I’ve got this. I’ve got my transceiver, which is like kind of the transceiver, which will help you to get found or find your friends. But, uh, in an avalanche, after 15 minutes in the avalanche, uh, you lose a 70% of your chances of survival. So, so it’s like a super minimal. And so that’s why when you ride, when something happens, you don’t even have time to call the rescue. Even if you’re in a ski resort, your friend is there, he calls the rescue straight away. Like for sure, they’re going to take at least 20 minutes to come. So, you know, you see your life chances going down. And then by the time they’ve started the search, found where you are, they probe you, they’re sure exactly where you’re at. If you’re just below the snow, it might take, uh, like maybe five minutes to dig you out. But if you’re under two meters of snow, which happens really easily, it’s going to take an hour. And like your chances then are like a few percent. So that kind of tells you how critical it can be. Yeah. And people just don’t realize that. Like they think, okay, I’ve got the gear. I mean, a ski resort close to the piece. So it must have been protected. But no, it’s a, it’s a mountain sport. And like slopes are protected, but like all the off piste, it’s not bombed. It’s not avalanche controlled. So, so it’s like you’re, you’re playing with your life. Yeah. I’m sorry, I sound very dramatic, but yeah, it’s just been such crazy times. This is, this is, this is what you want you to do. That’s what you want. I mean, this, this is something people have to keep in mind. And give me an idea how often that actually happens. So you, you out of 50 runs, how often do you think it would happen that there is something you have to worry about? No, no, I would say that out of 50 runs, like I would speak for my side. So cause I like to go in, in steep technical terrain. So there would be, I let’s say maybe of like five, five runs where I would release a little thing, or maybe 10 runs. So it’s like, wow. But that’s great. That’s, that’s not that rare then. That happens quite a bit then. Yeah, but it’s, it’s like, you know, that’s why it’s a bit, how do you say antagonist? Like, cause in a way, you think like for most of people, like a big, flattish run, like with a lot of powder, like with no obstacles, no rocks and things will be the safest. But for me, for me, it’s what scares me the most. Because basically it’s the highest potential average danger. But on a steep run, okay, you might release some pockets, but they’re going to be easy to identify. So you’re going to see, like, very often we see the pocket and we know we’re going to come at speed with it and just kind of break it and go and hide in, in, in the safe place right after it. So you know, it’s kind of part of the process. And as long as you don’t get tricked and so that it drags you into some exposure, then it’s something that’s fairly easy to deal with. So that’s why, you know, out of 50 runs, they could be between five and 10 times where I would be crossing some of those. But if I was riding a flattish, like, like really mellow runs with a lot of powder, you know, like all feeling kind of and looking safe, I would say zero times or one time out of 50, there would be something. But the problem is that when something happens on those runs, it’s just probably a lot bigger and a lot deeper. So a lot more dangerous in a way. I think this is where Nassim Talib’s anti fragility comes, it comes into play. I don’t know if you ever heard about Nassim Talib. He’s a, he’s a writer, philosopher. A lot of people, he’s been getting really popular the last 10, 15 years. But he’s originally, he’s worked in finance. And he says, if you, if you see volatility, so things are correcting themselves quite quickly, like small avalanches, right? So they are actually not that dangerous because you can see them coming to an extent and you cause them a lot. But actually, everyone can adjust to it. But if we have like an economy like now where the stock market really doesn’t really change for like decades, you just, you just build up this fragility. So it looks really safe because it hasn’t moved in a long time. But as you say, with the flatter area, but it’s actually the opposite. So it might not be the same, might not be the same probability, but if it happens, right, you, you’re screwed. It is, there’s like a couple of meters of snow on you. And then just, I guess the compression will kill you. You don’t even, you don’t even worry about oxygen anymore. If you have a couple of meters of snow on top of you. Yeah, it’s a super good analogy. Yeah, because it’s exactly that because it doesn’t go very often because it’s not steep enough. You know, it will let the snow accumulate. And when it goes, it goes massive and it goes everywhere. And because it’s like wide open, you know, the terrain is not really split up like it could be in a steep run. There, there, it means that the whole thing will go. And, and like, yeah, as you say, the consequences are like completely different because there’s going to be like millions of cubic meters of snow, which, which are after you and nowhere to go nowhere to hide. Well, one thing I wonder about from, from the videos we’ve seen in the background, is that some, is there like a camera crew? Are you like, you know, I’m, I’m, I’m, I’m referring always to Bear Groats because none of us was really aware and thinking of it that he had a whole camera crew, right? He always showed himself and he was sleeping in the tent or not even the tent. He was shown to sleep in a tree, but actually he slept in a nice hotel, right? When there was a whole film crew set up with that, that set up everything. And he never said he is alone there, but he kind of made it sound that way. And no one really called him out on it. And then like a couple of seasons later, people said, okay, well, there’s like a whole crew there. There’s like 30 people preparing everything and there’s safety advisors and safety harnesses everywhere. So he’s otherwise he wouldn’t be able to do it because, you know, he’s expensive to ensure him. And is it the same for you guys? Do you have a bunch of people that basically do the filming, a bunch of people who come in and do the safety equipment? And they do, is there like a, what I’m trying to get at, is there like harnesses everywhere? And you can, if a run goes bad, you can just stop pretty much everywhere. No, no, that would be too easy. Now, in some places we may have one or two guides that are with us, maybe especially if we film with a helicopter. So that’s something where you really try to film action. But in most of the films that I do, it’s going to be more an adventure that you’re going to be filming. So you’re going to be at the other end of the world in a place where there are no helicopters, because helicopters are all right if you want just to show some heavy metal actions, but they’re like pretty, pretty tame in terms of telling a story, you know, like, you know, you’re going to up the mountains, you’re going to shred like crazy. And that’s it. Whereas like, when you live an adventure, there’s always all this aspect of, you know, what it takes to get there and stuff. And in those cases, yeah, we might have a guide with us there. But you’re still at the other end of the world. And like rescue would take a few days to come in and get you. So it’s not like you can just stop in the middle of your run and just get pulled out. And also, in any case, like even if you’re close to like to mountain guides, if you have a helicopter close by, that’s actually probably the safest you can be in freeriding, because the helicopter can literally come to you like, you know, yeah, in a few seconds. But in a way, in a run, you cannot always just stop and just say, hey, please, please, I’m out. Because, you know, when things happen, things happen so quickly and so dramatically that if you’re not at the right spot, no one is going to be able to come and get you until like the avalanche or the CEREC4 or the KONIX4 or whatever has stopped. So it’s a pretty intense sport because like your descent is going to last only a few minutes. And in these few minutes, you know, you may have been spending weeks to just get there to leave those few minutes. And in those, a lot of things could happen and very quickly. So you better have good camera people because you cannot retake the same take, right? Yeah. You only have one chance of filming this literally the whole day or maybe the whole week. Yeah. Yeah. And also, because once you’ve ridden your run once, then there is a track, you know, so you cannot just ride it and just go back up again and refilm it. So it’s like, like you need to nail it like first thing. And also in the mountains, it’s always pretty tough to get the access right in terms of being at the top when the snow is good, the snow is safe, the light is good, the crew is ready. You know, it’s like a lot of things going on. But you know, I’ve experienced in my life, like I’ve been like doing some some cameos and like some stunt action like for for a few movies. And you would have like 200 people there with helicopters everywhere. And that’s like so many film crew, like so many cameramen, so many guides everywhere. It just becomes a nightmare because in the mountains, you know, it’s such a tough environment that you’re much better at being a small but tight crew. And that’s the way I’ve been working over the years, you know, like just two riders, one film or maybe two filmers, one photographer, one guide. And that’s it. Like that’s kind of the dream scenario usually. And that’s what I try to to privilege as much as possible. Yeah. Yeah. I realized reading about your adventures, you go to two pretty awesome places. I know you went to Antarctica, you went to Spitzburg, some of the places I went to pretty much everywhere in the world, but I haven’t been on Arctic as I’m really jealous. But I’m not a winter person. So yeah, well, it’s a challenge for me. And I’m not a fan of turbulence. How was your Antarctica adventure? Did you did you feel that was like totally different than what you’ve seen before? Or that was just, it could have been Spitzburg or could it be in Alaska? No, I went for the first, I went twice actually to Antarctica. And the first time I went, I went thinking exactly what you just said. I thought I was just going to be in another snowy country, where there would be a, yeah, like a bit of a hassle to go through the direct passage and, and like through that ocean and to, to just get out there. So it’d be nice to just go and witness it. But both times I went, I literally, you know, thought I was going to die on the way. And I did not know why I wasn’t on that boat anymore, because we were just like getting so crushed by such heavy storms. It’s the heaviest oceans in the world. They’re like the heaviest crossing you can get. Can be rough. Yeah. And I remember both times like the first morning where I should have been like, fuck this, like, yeah, like, yeah, I’m not, I’m not wanting to snowboard. I just, I just want to die basically. This is the mindset that I was in. And I remember opening the window and seeing those pigs, seeing these lights, seeing everything around and being like straight away, boom, like, like, this is so magic. And, yeah, and I’ve been twice and both times, I don’t know, it’s just been so intense in, in so many ways, so special, like so different. You know, it feels like another planet. First of all, there’s like no humans that live there. So, so, you know, that kind of changes completely the game, because you’re on your own with your little boat. All the, the wildlife is not scared of you. So you will see like all these wells going around your boat all the time, all the penguins, you know, at the bottom of your run, you could have hundreds of penguins, they just come and see you, they’re not scared. And all the seals are out there and the sea lions, it’s the same. And you just float through the the icebergs. And you’ve got that kind of really arctic light, which is a bit bluey and which is like really special. I don’t know, it’s just a combination of things, which is just like imbitable. And, and yeah, I’ve been in pretty much all the mountains of the world. And like, I remember, like, after the second trip with all the crew, we’re like, man, like, after this, we’re never going to be able to like to do a trip which like goes to, which compares even a little bit with this one, I think this is just imbitable. And it’s been the case really, like nothing has been even close to Antarctica for me. Have you been to the Himalayas up on the high mountains there? No, I’ve always been actually quite nervous about, you know, it’s a thing like, you know, a lot of people have asked me like, okay, like now your thing should be to go and ride one of those 8,000 meter peaks. But for me, you know, like, my philosophy has always been to, you know, it’s not a mountaineering philosophy. It’s not about, you know, like getting to the highest peak and writing the line down. You know, for me, it’s been more an aesthetic kind of thing. You know, it’s always been like, I want to ride this mountain because it’s beautiful, because if you see it with that light and everything with the shape of that wind, it’s going to be beautiful. So it has never been a matter of, you know, being the highest mountain, the, you know, the like the craziest, the sketchiest or whatever. And I’ve always felt that already what I do is super, super, super dangerous. And if I would add on top the like the very high altitude aspect where, you know, you can, you know, like you’re so limited with your brain, you know, it’s so dependent on not even your shape and your training, but basically your metabolism, like some people are really good at it. Some people are not. And like you suffer some so much, like you have all your capacities that are so reduced that I thought that to me was like, first of all, so much risk, you know, it’s so easy to just just stop down, you know, you just sit down in the snow, start to put your bindings on, and then you don’t have enough oxygen in your system, you just fall asleep and you die, you know, like this kind of thing is like, why should I put myself through this? When already what I do is already so borderline. Yeah, but you would be the perfect candidate, so to speak. I mean, if anyone can do it, then it would be you, right? And you have so much experience in the mountains. I think the Himalayas, and I tried I went a couple of times, I went, you know, barely, barely two to 5,000 meters. It’s, it’s, it’s very majestic, right? And it’s, it’s something that very few people are made to do. I’m not clearly not made for it. But I feel like you have, I mean, maybe not snowboarding, but just, you know, I don’t know, climbing. Did you think about that too? Or if you go, then you really want to snowboard, you don’t want to climb, you don’t want to walk down. That’s too boring. Well, I think if I go there, I would for sure bring my snowboard because it would be a lot faster to come down. And I will make it also even there would be a bit of a reward when you, when you hike up there, like a better reward. But yeah, it’s just a very specific style, you know, which takes a lot of time and a lot of commitment. And I’ve had such a busy life in the last 10 years, especially with my career, that it’s just been too much. So, but I don’t put it completely off the table. You know, it could be one of those days that, you know, I have a lot more space in my life. And it would be the time because I think this is definitely an approach which is good for when you’re really mature, when you’re like kind of like more later in your career than rather than early. Yeah, talking about what do you, what are you going to do next? So what’s, what’s like on your, on your list, what do you really want to do the next couple of years? Well, right now, like, I think the next project I am working on right now is to basically, you know, like right now, there are some really light paraglides that are like just above a kilo. And so you can pack them so easily into your backpack. And it’s just to use that to access lines. So using, you know, being in a ski resort or using the car or using different means and, and, and then writing a line and maybe exiting the line because there’s no normal exit to it, or it would take you a day of walking through something, just taking the paraglide, just go to the next valley and just being able to, to get out two minutes. So kind of to show a bit, you know, this thing, it’s a discipline that’s like getting quite common with a, you know, rock climbing or even a, we call it hike and fly, you know, that’s getting quite big. You just go and hike. And instead of breaking your knees on the way down, you just fly down. And, you know, this is a bit of an extension of that. So I’m really excited to work with this. Yeah. I basically, I think I need kind of means to, to discover, you know, to, to bring in, to, and like join with my snowboarding to, to kind of find new, like new things to explore, you know, cause I felt that, you know, just doing lines, doing rad lines, like being, like the craziest, the fastest or whatever, you know, it’s something that reached this limit fairly quickly into my career. But I’ve been very excited that, like the, the, the prospect of mixing the snowboarding with other things, why could learn a lot, where I could, you know, experience and fail and succeed. And yeah, this is basically one of those things. And I’m super, super excited about that. Yeah. Yeah. I, I read you’ve been investing in a couple of companies or like helping them to, to get more exposure. And you’re also doing the podcast, right? What was the inspiration for this? I know it’s about sustainability that, that is clearly a system and a very strong topic for a lot of people. What do you feel is the message that hasn’t been unsaid? Let’s put it this way or that, that you transport out there. I mean, you have a lot of bigger audience and pretty much anyone else. What do you think can, can, can you contribute to that? You know, very, it’s a lofty goal, but it’s also very big goal, right? Actual sustainability. Yeah. Sustainability is a, is a subject that I never want, like that was dear to me personally, but then I never want, wanted to express publicly. And I’ve had the chance to meet in Verbi Johan Raksson. So he’s the head of the Potsdam Institute. He’s been like the, the, the, the director of the, all the Institute that have drafted the, the Paris agreements. So that’s a quite like trendy at the moment with a Trump being not there anymore. But anyways, like, like listening to him, it’s completely changed my mind because he’s had such a nice way to explain things. So, you know, like, I could watch this whole presentation of his view on, on the, like the situation on global warming. And I knew, okay, we’re in a bad situation, but I didn’t really know how, you know, and in the news, you would hear these and that, like the country informations, always informations that would cancel the other ones. And I always felt that I was never able to know exactly what was going on in the world, to being able to speak about it. So by listening to you, to him, I understood quickly, you know, what happened. I really loved his vision where basically it was not about, you know, trying to be the perfect green guy, which I could never be and which like so few of us could be in a way, because it’s just not that possible. We’ve got families, we’ve got jobs, we’ve got careers, we’ve got, you know, we live in places where it’s not even probably possible to live in a sustainable way. Sometimes. And yeah, listening to him, you know, it was really clear that you could keep on living the way, we could keep on living the way that we are, like, you know, with our consumption and stuff, but just make it in a smarter way, so that we would just progress regularly. And that we, if we all did that, we could eventually kind of really stabilize in a way, all the global emissions and the global warming. And he’s allowed me also to understand what was happening and the challenges of the global warming. And a lot of it is really related to the ice, to all the polar ice. And he’s been talking about three poles, so like the North Pole, the South Pole, and all the Tibetan Plateau, all the Himalayas, which is kind of the equivalent of those two previous poles. And to me, like kind of when he was doing all the presentation, it kind of rang about that this were the most amazing places that had been, like, witnessing as a snowboarder and that it would be such a nice story to go as a kind of stupid snowboarder, in a way, to these places, to show how beautiful they were through the snowboarding and to learn on the way, you know, what was happening in the world and kind of tell all that message from Johan that’s so fascinating. By the way, if you have the chance, if you’re interested in sustainability, or even if you’re not, and you want a kind of easy breakdown of what’s going on with the latest data, I know, because like those guys produce all the data. I really encourage you to go and watch some of his podcasts, like Johan Rakhstrom is like an incredible guy and very simple to understand, very strict to the point, and not in a way to do me gloomy. And yeah, I really like his approach. Yeah, I never heard about him before. I listened to a couple of your podcasts. I heard him speak in one of them. I have to look that up. There’s so many things in it, in this global warming debate, and I think this is what troubles a lot of people. It’s gone from something that had, you know, a small community in the science field to something that is suddenly a consensus, and it has become very political over time, right? And these things have only happened in the last 10, 15 years. And I sometimes compare them, maybe this is not a fair comparison, when I was an extreme lefty, and when I was 18, 19, I wasn’t close to Antifa, but it was close in the same area in a nonviolent way. And the time really had that topic about the ozone layer, and the ozone layer would basically go away within a couple of years, and everyone was fearful and was panicky. And fortunately, it didn’t happen, right? But the panic and the whole, I feel the whole scenario is similar to global warming, and maybe this is not a fair comparison, right? Because some things are more dangerous than others, and they are not all the same. But I kind of feel drawn back sometimes into the same area, and I don’t feel, I was, I didn’t understand the problem at all, and I didn’t want to write, I just wanted to write on this emotion. And if I asked myself, looking back at the time, I didn’t know any of this, right? I just wanted to be part of a community, and that was the community that was fashionable at the time. And I feel, you know, obviously glaciers are various mountains, and the way mountains behave in their climate, I mean, that’s very vulnerable. So I think in mountains we already see a lot of glaciers are receding, and that’s certainly something to worry about. And it’s an ecosystem that can easily suffer with really minimal changes. I do, and that’s, I think for a lot of people, they kind of, I don’t actually know how, how he thinks, or with your experience, but you’re very polyglot, right? You speak a couple of languages, and you go to anywhere on the planet. But there’s a lot of places where people don’t really worry about the glaciers, because literally they have nothing to eat, right? So it’s our carbon, and the way energy is being produced is their only ticket out of literally dying from hunger. And there’s, you know, most, a lot of places in Africa like this, it’s getting much better, but even India, Bangladesh, there’s a lot of places you couldn’t care less about the climate if they care about their own survival, right? And that might change in the next 10 years, hopefully, right? That’s kind of what my podcast wants to really do is bring the message of entrepreneurship everywhere. I mean, they don’t need me for it, but I want to try to make it a little easier to get access to this knowledge. How do you, how do you feel, you know, other countries and other places that have very different interests of where we are right now in Europe and the US, how they fit into the sustainability debate? Do you think they just, we give them 20 years, and then they can join in, and then they can kind of take our lessons? Or do you feel it’s, we’re kind of playing with fire there? Well, I think, yeah, it’s a very white topic. But of course, it’s pretty obvious that when you, when you have to fight for your food, and when you’re not sure that you’re going to get food the next month for your kids, sustainability is going to be the last of your problems. And especially, probably, if you’re in that stage, you don’t have time to really spend, to research, to understand what’s happening. So for sure, it’s not going to be a priority. And it’s the luxury that we have in our societies in a way to have the time to, and the knowledge to realize what’s going on. And I think like the difference from, from like probably the 90s, like when there was this all, like this ozone kind of whole layer, like this big thing, is that like now, I think there are many more ways to measure what’s going on and to predict, and it’s a lot more accurate. And when you put everything together, I think it’s pretty scary. And that’s why I thought it was so interesting, because it’s true that when you don’t know exactly what’s going on, it’s really hard to care for it, because you feel that, okay, you care deeply about it, because it’s trendy to care about it. But that, yeah, maybe like the problem will solve itself. But now the curves are actually like getting, getting pretty bad. And yeah, I’m like, once again, like, this is why I wanted to do this project, because on a personal level, I found always so hard to know exactly what was going on. And to have someone like this being able to tell you exactly with facts and numbers, and predictions and like big like models, what’s going on, it’s pretty scary. And you were talking about glaciers before. And I think to me, you know, the fact that glaciers disappear in itself, it’s not a big deal. Okay, like you could be like, oh, poor snowboarders, you’re going to be disappointed because you don’t have your glaciers to ride on anymore. But it’s not really the thing. It’s just that, you know, like the melt of glacier is the representation. It’s one of the things where you can actually see how fast it goes, and how exponential it is going. And I think, you know, it should be more taken in, you know, as a sign rather as a consequence, which is scary, because the consequence itself is no big deal. But if this, if the glacier disappears, or when the glacier disappears, it’s all the cost, like the other consequences that go with this consequence, which will be the scary ones. And, and the worst thing is that the people that are going to suffer the most from it is those people that you mentioned before that, that couldn’t care less right now, because they’re like, they’re like, yeah, they struggle for their life. And, and yeah, and they’ll be the ones suffering the most at first. And that’s kind of a bit of the side, one, one of the sad side of the stories, yeah, among many. But yeah, once again, it’s like, it’s a very tricky subject, a bit political, like there’s so many opinions about it. So it’s quite tough. So, so yeah, in a way, for me, it was like, I just wanted to be the messenger to be giving the voice to someone that actually really knows. And, and like, who really inspired me as a, as a person. Yeah. Yeah. No, I think that’s, that’s this, there’s a lot there. And a lot of this might might be emotional. A lot of this might be stuff we don’t see yet, right? Because we’re still, you know, human history is shown that people are not the smartest. And it takes a long time to rise up to challenges. So it’s probably way better to be safe than sorry. But there’s so much going on. I’m, I’m, you know, you can probably talk just years over those things that I think scientists do this all the time. And it’s, it’s very difficult to decipher, as you say, what actually is really going on. I guess that’s, that’s the problem in most of our society these days. That’s why people, we look up to you to people like you, right, who we know, we’re sure what, what the risk that you’re taking is real. And you, you come out on the other hand and on the other side, right? And that’s, I think part of that, what we want to achieve with this show is, is, is telling real stories of people who are real, who are not making up things we can’t prove. And you know, that’s, I think people are looking up to you. I’m looking up to you that you, you are able to, to take that amount of risk and be comfortable with it. And you know, you’re doing something, I think it’s something very positive to the world in showing people that they can grow out of their, their own little comfort zone and go somewhere where it looks maybe suicidal to the outside. But once you learn how to do it, it’s become still dangerous, but still very much manageable. And I think this is extremely laudable. Thanks. I appreciate that you said that because this is something, you know, I am like, in a way proud of, you know, like all these kind of mountaineering values that you get when you’re out there and when you really need to, to learn to care for yourself, not necessarily just do, you know, like not, not acting by only reacting with like noises from people telling you, okay, this is dangerous, but being able to, you know, like, okay, how far can I go until it’s still safe to go back, to turn back kind of in a way, but at least I will have gone there and seen instead of just not going and turning back because someone said it’s dangerous. So I think there’s a lot to, to, to this in the whole mountaineering aspect of things. And I think this is something that I try to transfer into my life and that I would really love, like, many children to kind of be being brought up in a bit of that spirit. I know my children, I try to teach them that, you know, to just not like, just listen too much, like what every, like everyone else tells you, and especially when it comes to fear and danger, but like, kind of be smart about it, like, take the information, make your own judgment, and like mix the two together and like take your decision in a way. So, so this is exactly the way we work in the mountains. And I think that this is like something like which makes you take life, you know, by the bulls and like really appreciate it. And, and yeah, I think I’m, yeah, I hope that my daughter’s really grew up with that philosophy. And actually, my eldest daughter is 15 years old and I can already see the result in her. And I think I’m very happy about this approach. It might not be everyone’s cup of tea, but I feel very comfortable with it. Yeah. This is the best wrap I could ask for. Savy, thanks, thanks for doing this. That was fantastic. Thanks for sharing these stories. Excellent, Torsten. It’s been a pleasure to share that moment with you and having this nice discussion about subjects that I dear to my heart. So thank you very much for sharing this with everyone. So it will be my pleasure and stay safe. You too. Bye. Thank you. Bye bye.

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